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Home Page Forums Darwin’s Ark Black Mouth Cur “purebred” or no

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  • #6166
    david ford
    david ford
    Participant

    I just joined and find this to be facinating research. I signed up both my dogs then it occurred to me that my Cur might not qualify for the study. How do you determine what is a mixed breed for the study? My take is that for one thing the AKC doesn’t recognize any of the so called “Cur” variations. And Cur by definition = mongrel or mixed breed. Probably because the “standard” for them varies from one region to another. There are however said “confirmation standards” for them even though the “standards” are so loose that virtually any dog over 40lbs with a black muzzle and lips would fit into it. 😛 So would that classify them as purebreds?
    Just to let you know that I am ok with it one way or the other! 🙂 Hopefully I will live long enough to be able to read some of the findings. (I am 68 now .. mind still functioning more or less normally .. but I realize that studies like this can take a loooooong time)

    #6167
    brittney logan
    brittney logan
    Keymaster

    Hi David, thank you for joining our research! We are welcoming any breed or mix to participate in this research, there are not qualification standards in order to participate. We are very interested in looking at the difference in behavior and genetics between each dog individually. The first information that we will be able to tell from the DNA results is what are call “breed calling data” which is a graph that will tell you the ancestry of your dog. Then we begin the longer journey of trying to find correlations between behavior and genetics. As, you mentioned, this is research and could take some time as it has never been done before! We are doing our best to keep things going in a timely manner, but science cannot be rushed. Thank you very much for your participation and interest in this canine behavioral genetics research!

    #6168
    kristen johnson 2
    kristen johnson 2
    Participant

    I’m not sure why I thought this was only for mutt’s either. Do you have many pure-breed dogs participating in the study? I just wonder since it seems like people are interested in taking part because of the DNA kit results. My parents have a Newfoundland and a mutt. I’m getting them involved. I’ve also shared this study with the Facebook group for the dog classes I am involved in. There are many pure-breed dog owners in those classes. I know you are backlogged and have a lot of interest……but I figure it’s better to have too much interest than not enough! 🙂

    #6169
    jesse mcclure
    jesse mcclure
    Participant

    Kristen,

    We currently have 3,724 dogs enrolled whose owners have indicated that they are registered purebreds. There are about twice that number of our enrolled dogs that have only one breed listed by the owner.

    #6170
    david ford
    david ford
    Participant

    Thanks for the response Brittney 🙂 .. not sure how I got the idea it was for mixed only.. It would be really interesting to see Cake’s ancestry. But I realize with the “newness” of the study it could be a while for results to come back. Just really excited that scientists are starting to take a more serious look at dogs in this and other areas as well.

    #6171
    Jennifer
    Jennifer
    Participant

    Not that it matters with regard to Darwin’s Dogs, but FWIW, Black Mouths are recognized by the UKC, and I know that Embark, at least, does test for at least some of the UKC-only Cur types, such as the Mountain Cur and the Catahoula–I’ve seen both those breeds repeatedly turn up in individual dogs’ Embark breed ancestry results. Not sure whether Embark presently has enough Black Mouth DNA on file to reliably test for Black Mouth ancestry, but if nothing else, the fact that they’ve successfully tested for other Curs demonstrates that just because a breed isn’t AKC-recognized doesn’t mean it doesn’t still constitute a genetically distinct population. Even if it’s the case that working Black Mouth breeders might be a bit loosey-goosey in the sense that maybe sometimes they’ll use a great working dog in their breeding program even if they know that individual isn’t pure Black Mouth, occasional occurrences of that type probably wouldn’t significantly affect the genetic distinctiveness of the breed. Just as an example, all the commercial dog DNA ancestry tests are able to recognize working (ABCA-registered only) Border Collies as Border Collies, even though it’s well known that the ABCA sometimes “ROMs” (registers on merit) dogs whom they know fully well aren’t purebred BC by ancestry, so long as those dogs have proven themselves as great sheepdogs who work in the BC style. So something like that might well be true of Black Mouths, too. “Cur” in contemporary American English actually more often refers to that specific group of Southern-origin, multipurpose farm dogs who are especially known for their treeing skills, rather than to its older meaning of “any old mixed-breed dog.”

    OTOH, shelter-adopted dogs who were labeled at shelter as “Black Mouths” based on nothing more than happening to have several physical features of that breed are another story, and no reputable commercial ancestry test would use such dogs in their reference sample pool. I know a dog that was sold at shelter as a “Black Mouth Cur” but tested as a GSD/Boxer mix, which I don’t doubt, since while the dog does look a fair amount like a Black Mouth in pics (as you might expect from a GSD/Boxer mix), in real life it’s improbably huge compared to one (over 70 lbs.), bounces clownishly around like a Boxer, and shows no hunting instincts whatsoever. That kind of thing happens a lot–shelters labeling a mutt as some improbably rare breed because it helps them sell faster “and besides, it just *looks* like one…”

    #6172
    david ford
    david ford
    Participant

    Thanks for the information Jennifer. When I got Cake at a shelter in Chattanooga TN she was labeled as a Lab/Pit mix. At the time I was taking her to a local dog park a couple of times a week and one day saw a dog that looked exactly like her. Male and slightly bigger. Upon questioning the owner he said they were BMCs. Went home and googled BMC and there was her picture. Or maybe a close relative picture. 🙂 Started researching the breed. She seemed to conform to the “standard” in most ways that I could tell. Size, temperment, color ect. But we will see once the DNA results are done. It has been my experience while volunteering at shelters that when a tan or black dog with floppy ears comes in it is invariably labled a lab mix of some kind. lol

    #6173
    kristen johnson 2
    kristen johnson 2
    Participant

    Dave that’s what happened to me with my Dexter…..well sort of. The shelter labeled him as an Australian Shepherd mix. At some point a Blue Heeler/Australian Cattle Dog was mentioned and I googled and was shocked. I’m convinced he has that in him. I know you can’t judge mutts by looks but I feel certain he has to!

    Thanks for the response Jesse! I really didn’t expect a specific answer so that’s awesome. I’m glad to hear there are purebreds because I’m sure that will help with the study. My parents have a Newfoundland and a mutt and I’m going to get them involved as well. I’m super fascinated by this whole thing!

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